T O P

Unpopular opinion : flanking is the reason you lose most games.

Unpopular opinion : flanking is the reason you lose most games.

mike_klosoff

dude not every single squad is supposed to flank. honestly only one or two attacking squads should be flanking and (i know most people dont see any value in this, which is stupid for a hardcore shooter) the others should be DEFENDING. the reason you lose isnt because some squads flank, its because nobody fucking defends.


AirFell85

This is the truth. I hate being SL, but if I have to become SL, we're now a defense/build squad.


Deus_Machina

Oh captain my captain


that-vault-dweller

Personally love being a SL most of the time but yes I usually volunteer my squad to be on defence unless someone else says so before me Then I push them into the mincer, after a few attempts I'll pull them back as no one likes dying repeatedly, maybe then defend halfway between the attacking point and our defensive line


AhsasMaharg

You do the Lord's work, and I appreciate your sacrifice and patience.


DogePerformance

I hate how few people understand this. Shit, I have more fun defending usually, because I know I'm pissing people off when I found good hides


frankie_fes

Honestly I don't get it. All of the best games I've played have been building defences at a point and getting to know a bunch of dudes whilst we build shit and prep, and then defending it to the last with those dudes amidst the onslaught of enemy soldiers.


kung_fu_jive

Hell yes. Sitting on the line scanning the horizon for incoming is fucking intense!


SamSzmith

Yeah, these are the fun and interesting games.


5hukl3

read my comment :) that's what I said. Flanking in a nutshell isn't entirely bad (depending on how it's done, if you're a SL and take you're entire squad on a 15min run on the otherside of the map, you're definitely doing it wrong). The problem is in pubs, everyone leaves the frontline to go flanking as soon as they can. Which effectively negates the advantage of a flank and leaves the frontline open to the ennemy. As far as defense, you're right, not enough people defend. But even attacking squads should be defending. There is no point attacking the ennemy if your point is halfway capped, you should be redeploying too. The issue with flanking is different in comp games when only a squad or 2 will be doing it. In this case it's perfectly fine. And mostly, only the SL should be running around to get an OP/garry up, while the rest of the squad should wait and hold the frontline in the meantime. in HLL, games are won by how many people you have in cap zone. If half your team is running around in deadcap zone trying to flank, you're going to lose.


stinkdyrz

This reason right here is why I never ever, ever build a flank side attack garrison, it’s like asking your entire team to both stop defending AND sidestep the enemies advance. The enemy caps your point first virtually every time.


Tartooth

My favorite are SL who "flank" by putting their OP literally 2 whole blocks away from BOTH points and then don't attack anything


ragged-robin

When everyone is flanking no one is flanking


SamSzmith

You're not flanking if your whole team is on the flanking garrison. Also, I really hate early airheads before any garrison network is even setup, it's really frustrating as everyone wants early kills so they all rush the airhead and you lose the point.


5hukl3

Let me explain : In most pub games, as soon as someone drops a flanking garrisons, everyone leaves the front line to "go on a flank" cuz they don't wanna be in the "meat grinder". Most YouTuber keep telling you how flanking is high IQ. What usually happens is everyone then leaves the front line totally open, which allows the ennemy team to easily march towards the point with no resistance, while most of your team is now in dead cap zone running around being useless. Stop flanking. Only one or 2 squads should be doing it at the very very most. And since there is barely any coordination in pubs, you shouldn't be flanking as noobs are inevitably going to do it cuz they think it's high IQ play.


GrimXIIIGeist

Well that's how things are everybody wants to be a hero mvp haha.


zimmozman

I push the front and still am the hero MVP everytime.


CapnGnobby

That's why I tailor my game to what everyone else is doing. I have lost games for my team before by... placing garrisons! Everyone spawns on them instantly some games with no thought as to what they should be doing. Teams should work together with or without a commander and with or without communication. Did you see all other squads spawn on the airhead? Tell your squad to hold back and defend. No one defending a garrison-less objective? Tell someone to get you supplies and get building whilst your squad defend from those pesky recon. Just do what no one else is and you'll be part of the solution.


[deleted]

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ItsNotNow

You're absolutely spot on. It can offer extreme leverage for the attackers, BUT if there are no or few (the single squad leader doing their goddamned best begging their squad and other squads to aid them) then it becomes a cartoon flying karate kick against a jiu jitsu (or even just someone with half a brain) opponent who will absolutely punish the attacker.


jxai

Would be nice as a commander to have the ability to deactivate (not destroy) garrisons or play abilities that incentivize where to spawn without forcing -- such as having a short spawn timer on one garrison at the cost of longer timers on others


Pleiadez

What you are saying is flanking is fine but you need to defend. This is true.


BOG01

>as soon as someone drops a flanking garrisons > >they don't wanna be in the "meat grinder" This is the root cause of your issues, not enough garris. 4-5 Defensive garris will never create a meat grinder unless its one squad in the thick of it. This gives you room to establish the flank which will either: 1. hold your front line and prevent the enemy from flanking or 2. overwhelm their strongpoint attack by an inward collapse while quickly getting people out on the flanks. The name of the game is to control territory. You need to be where the enemy is, while at the same being where they are not.


djolk

Honestly, you control territory by sitting in the meat grinder. You know you have achieved control when you are not reacting to pinged garrisons/call outs and can just grind away. Win the fight in the grinder, control more territory.


urrugger01

I mean that 100% depends in where the grinder is and how close your cap is to a sector line vs theirs.


djolk

???


urrugger01

Lwts say the meat grinder is at the mid point sector border. Their cap is right near the border and yours is far right and back pretty far. Think brecourt on old SMDM. If you are attacking the grinder is good for you. It holds them in place and pits pressure on the point. Theor only option is to flank but that lets you push in on the grinder. It is not realistic to push the grinder 600m or more from mid point to the far left sector as the defending team. Either you drop the garry and cut off pressure or you flank and force assymetry while holding your defense just long enough. If the grinder is near your strong point, play I g into it is likely a losing battle as all it takes is a lucky garry snipe and you can lose the point. Yes thats helped by multiple garries, but that by nature is a counter play to grinder as it allows multiple routes to flank and relieve pressure by attack garry takedowns or red garry creations.


djolk

Sure, lots of nuances, but you need bodies in the meat grinder, winning or at least holding that attrition battle. If you abandon the meat grinder you are just going to give up that ground and probably have enemy walk into your point, or start to clear siaens and you for sure have lost.


urrugger01

Strongest flank strat is commander + a couple SLs with defensive Ops who convert to offensive OPs and red garries when a gap appears then a rapid redeploy exploitation of the gap.


SchmidtLR

Dont trust "youtubers" on anything "to do in game". Like never. Early Squad gameplay got destroyed by "bUt ThE sTrEaMeR tOlD sO!" Watching some sunzi compilations on tiktok dont make you to the military mastermind. Defending is more fun anyway. Barbwire anywire, PAK, BELGISCHE TORE!, keeping notes alive, this shit NEEDS TO BE DONE OR YOU LOSE THE GAME! Fuck me this larping level 1xx BigIQ gamer, give me some low level that wants to learn and shit is cash.


Koalski94

only a handful youtubers that covered the game in the past are actually playing the game on regular basis. Most of them have little to no knowledge how the metagame works due to simple lack of experience. Meanwhile experienced players need to explain in 10 sentences how the every mechanic works to players in game because the latter doesn't know better))


SomeRandomGuy49363

Not only do they leave the front line with 0 defence, but they also just move the front line. Initially, the front line is where it is supposed to be, but then when everyone goes on a flank, you end up with the exact same front line, just on the other side of the strong point.


theatrics_

>Stop flanking Or: communicate with other squads and make sure some are committed to continue playing defense? What an absolutely dogshit take, lol. This isn't battlefield, you're not ebbing the flow of the tide like a game of pachenko. Just communicate.


Koalski94

I would agree if it actually helped, the problem is being that every other SL thinks it his duty to flank, regardless of what command or other SL say in command chat. Very rarely people do actually follow orders or to be more precise *want* to follow orders. How often do you see random blueberries or even your squad mates fuck off and just spawn where they like? I think we both know the answer.


theatrics_

You would be surprised how well people respond to effective communication. It just starts with SLs not bitching and mindlessly playing call of duty. Communicate.


Ir0nxW0lf

If this is true, then there should be some sort of option to only allow a garrison/op that's set up for 2 predetermined squads, selected by squad leaders or the commander. This may be to complicated to do properly though


Turbofox23

See, here is the problem even if specific squads were told where to go there will always ALWAYS will be one sl that thinks that they're above orders.


[deleted]

Yea flank but don’t mass redeploy. My buddy and I do 2 man back line flanking all the time kind of acting as a third recon squad and I’ll take a supply truck to drop supplies around their back line so when I think we could use a flank Garry and not be screwed by a mass redeploy, I’ll put it up because you can’t trust pub people to not tunnel vision a new Garry. If you do this always tell officer chat to tell their guys not to redeploy because it may stop enough of them from doing it while the others that were gonna do it anyway will probably be enough of a flank.


Amendus

Technically, if everybody flanks, you're not flanking anymore. Then you're just rushing the objective with a detour.


the_jabrd

Depends on the point. Trying to flank and climb the cliffs on Omaha beach as the US is just asinine and guarantees that you'll end up stuck on the first point. Other times it's the only way to get in behind a well fortified position and try to clear out spawns so the frontal assault can eventually break through. The number one thing to do when attacking a point is sniff out their garries and tear them down so they can't reinforce it


Je_Sournois

The way to solve ‘how many people should be flanking and who’ is so simple. The commander. Arguably The single most important individual on the map who is the most readily ignored. Flanking wins games fast when employed correctly with good communication that has been controlled by the commander and active SL’s.


Pitch_Visible

Right


zimmozman

Wrong.


Pitch_Visible

Wrong


djolk

Wrong. Commander is just a button pusher and garrison builder. SLs are the most important people, their decisions have the most impact on the game. Even in comp matches the commander is arguably less important. We tell our comp SLs to ignore the commander's orders (with feedback) if they think they need to do something else.


Je_Sournois

Yeah that’s a good enough point for someone who is a poor commander and hasn’t spent time playing as a SL for many hours first to truly know their worth and value. Most SL’s I see never respond in command chat, or do what the commander asks (like facilitate garri building and nodes, sensible flanks, tank hunting, attack or defence) which causes game downfall. This point both adds to the opinion that SL’s are the most important, but also highlights how important the commanders wider overview is of a battlefield. I did say ‘arguably’ after all 😬


SomeRandomGuy49363

Maybe that's what the commander is at the bare minimum. Sure, he doesn't need to actually command people, but it can help to do so. If the enemies are pinning your team down, you can order every squad to fall back and defend except for one or two. People will want to just rush ahead, so having the commander tell them to stop might save the game. It does make sense to ignore them if they say something stupid though.


djolk

Well commander can only look at the map and guess what needs to be done. SLs are in the thick of it so have better ideas.


SomeRandomGuy49363

Who says the commander can't go into the thick of it himself?


Pitch_Visible

Wrong


djolk

Uhhh ok, I literally have thousands of hours in this game and dozens of competitive matches under my belt but if you want to role play WW2 have at it.


Pitch_Visible

Sounds great.


djolk

Let me guess, medic main?


Pitch_Visible

Wrong


theatrics_

Wow, dude. Just, wow. What a shitty diss to medics. You sound like a miserable teammate.


djolk

Lol, what does a medic do, besides roleplay that guy from Band of Brothers?


Japcsali

Look, Medic bashing = based. Everything else you've said = cringe


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djolk

Once again solidify my opinion that this sub is filled with people that do not understand the game and/or want to roleplay. "WaIT FOr ThE mEdIC!!!!" "KiLls DOn'T MaTTeR!"


bumpngrind1949

300 IQ is play is to play defense and get 400+ combat points


bmathew5

Recon flanks and 1 other infantry. 60-75% of remaining infantry push and the remaining DEFEND. 9/10 losses I've had is because we got back capped. Why? Because NO ONE was on point. By the time I call it out to the other SLs and commander get everyone to 'fall back' it's too late.


djolk

This is actually a 200 IQ post. The meatgrinder is where you win/lose.


notasmellybridgetrol

1 squad should flank to set up an assault from 2 angles. They gotta set up a safe garrison behind enemy lines tho. Recon would be doing this as well but not exclusively.


ZARVIYA

What pisses me off is when you're apart of the defense team and you lose the point all squads instantly shit talk like bruh we could've used the fuckin help but instead you all pushed into their armor column..43 times.


maximusnz

Yep as you were SL and the only squad on d since the start of the game and kept asking for help as you got pushed but no and then got shouted about there being no Garry. “Akshually I built 2 but they were all taken down as we were slowly overrun, our defenses and nodes taken down while you guys were all still hanging around on the point in front of the one you already lost while we screamed for help.” Fuuuuuu


BenjiTheShort

Stalin: “meat grinder gud”


Fantact

Paradoxically, flanking is the reason your strong point is lost while you rush the enemy strong point.


naggy94

I always ask for a L shaped approach, if not pincer.


Baconbac28

Flanking is actually really good. It’s just that 90% of the team wants to flank so they can get all the kills and destroy the garrys. However most of you’re team is with you coming around the objective, that flank basically turns into the front line and the enemy then knows where the entire team is coming from. I disagree with saying flanking is bad. But I could certainly understand why some people are opposed to doing it all the time.


applesauceorelse

There's truth to this - hammer and anvil and all of that. But even if you're the anvil, there's more to it than "just keep rushing the same angle" or "spawn, die, spawn die" like some people seem to advocate. There's art / strategy / tactics to pushing through the meatgrinder as well. If you keep fucking dying because you're rushing down some route that's covered by 3 enemies in good cover who keep seeing your squad first because you're sprinting at them or peeking the same corner, you're not doing any good. You should be either 1. stopping, slowing down, and using accurate fire to clear angles before you push them, 2. shifting up your specific angle of attack / route of advance (e.g., with the aid of smoke), or 3. using the cover of artillery, bombing runs, tanks, and machine guns to suppress and clear head-on. ---- And second, hammer / anvil doesn't have to be from a preset direction. If you're attacking west to east, your main thrust and flank can be from the north and south for example, if the west is well covered, you don't always have to attack from that angle. Sometimes it helps to shake up the main assault as well. You have to make sure they're not just waltzing through you to your defended point, sure. But I see just as many teams fail because they keep hammering their heads against the same wall as I do teams that fail because half of them got lost on a glorious flank.


[deleted]

No, it's squads not having assigned tasks. 3/4 of the team should defend, do their rounds and spread out but stay within the 4 grids ish while the other couple squads work together to build ninja Garries and Destoy enemy Garries at the same time while trying cap.


BukLauFinancial

If the whole team flanks, sure. But if I go on a solo flank and kill 20 dudes, no.


Koalski94

good luck with solo tanking after today


BukLauFinancial

I never said anything about solo tanking.


hsnerfs

Well when the whole team flanks yeah it's not really a flank


Partysdewer

I agree, when i play as a commander (on the attack) i try to have almost all my squads on a frontal assault and 1or 2 flanking, like a hammer and an anvil. If u explain this most SL understand. (Sorry for my broke english)


evo784crip

try going to chinese servers. noone communicates, everybody goes straight to the strong point, some squad members flank, some squad members go straight ( theres basically mini factions in a squad) noone defends, very rarely someone builds nodes. Garrisons are uncommon. tons of cheaters ( hiding inside a building then boom, shot dead) fck i hate my region. atleast in aussie servers theres always 1 squad task to defend


BigWhile1707

i always manage to succeed when rallying my entire squad to push into a designated kill zone to go into a strong point and always fail going through the weakest part of their lines…


nariyana

Playing commander you seem some real artists who I assume are just 14 year olds playing with friends trying to have “fun”. I’ve seen flanks that go out so far and so long that we’re capping the fourth objective and they haven’t finished their flank. I always tell squad leaders as commander if you are having fun you’re playing the game wrong.


Koalski94

> I always tell squad leaders as commander if you are having fun you’re playing the game wrong. well, that's a bit harsh. I'd say if you haven't seen any enemies in 2-3 minutes you're at the wrong side of the map.


[deleted]

Swinging a hammer without an anvil and you'll just hit yourself in the balls


soLuckyyy

I think less people would flank if there were more tools to actually attack a position head on. This game is so defender bias that all it takes is 1 person in a good position to hold off an entire squad. Fortifications, the suppression system, low TTK, extremely loud footsteps, slower run speeds, there is an endless list of things that give defenders the advantage while the only tool available at the squad level to combat these advantages is smoke grenades which are very lackluster and limited to a select few classes. Because neither side really has any chance of breaking through the front lines head on it just becomes a complete stalemate until someone is able to get an effective flank off to remove or disable some spawns. People who have played long enough to understand this are then faced with the decision of either being part of the meatgrinder and effectively doing nothing to change the course of the battle, or flanking and being the reason your team gets the point. Ironically it's the people who actively play defense and hunt down the flanking squads that tend to have the most impact on whether or not your team wins.


zimmozman

"People who have played long enough to understand this" speak for yourself. You have all the tools you need in your squad to push the front.


that-vault-dweller

It's always been easier to defend then to attack..


lordsch1zo

True irl as well and being as this game at irs core is sopposed to cater to a more hardcore shooter type it makes since it would be that way in game.


Koalski94

> I think less people would flank if there were more tools to actually attack a position head on you mean like MGs, automatic weapons, grenades, smoke grenades, tanks, artillery, commander air support? By the way pushing the front =/= going into a straight line if that's what you're trying to say. Smoke rounds on the annoying bunker - enemy can see fuckall for at least 30 seconds, you're pushing in, easy.


Vegetable_Word603

Thats why you employ recon as a flank, keep your main troops on the objectives, its about attrition. Keep the pressure on the enemy.


that-vault-dweller

& that's why I hate playing as recon lmao Standard infantry for me 90% of the time, a couple of my buddies like to play as recon so I put my aversion aside to let them have some sniping fun


Vegetable_Word603

Muahahahahahah, yeah I totally get that. I'm usually running rifleman (just love using that garand), assault or Mg with the bar.


dismal626

Am I the only one who doesn't understand the graph at all?


Koalski94

don't you worry, just need another 1k hours played


DakezO

Honestly, op nails it. this is the best strategy. pile mg, ammo carrier supply and assault into a truck and rush the point and run the supply truck up there with the sl. Everyone else foot slog. Heavy fire output holds the pint, Garry down. Rinse and repeat.


Kieferkobold

You are right. The commander has to keep an eye on every squad and has to give advise on what squad to flank. It is key of the game to keep as much people as possible in the right cap zones.


BlueBrr

I am starting to see it this way as well. I know of at least one match I was responsible for losing for establishing a long flanking garry that 60% of the team started using. On one hand, flanks take points. Allowing a point to get surrounded leads to it falling. On the other hand, unwise flanks draws blueberries out of the fight as they want to stop dying. I think as a rule garrisons should be established to the sides and rear of a defending point with outposts used to hold the middle. The same would hold for attacking garrisons, set to each side of the attack point. This naturally leads to secure defensive flanks while allowing attacks from defending garrisons where enemy pressure is light. Obvious exceptions would be maps like PHL, where garrisons are best established to hold river crossings. It's a highly situational thing though. At the same time if your entire team is running straight from point A to point B then the attacking column is highly susceptible to a defense that's spread out on a line \~100m to each side of a point. The defenders can freely flank the attackers, crush the offensive, and are in a prime position to surround your defensive point. Really it just boils down to pubby herding. I have a few good people who will listen and pay attention in my squads, but for the most part you have to give the blueberries desirable spawn options that work towards your goal, and avoid giving them "hero" spawns that take them out of the fight.


frontovika

I always thought flanking was the best move, based on my experience in previous FPS games.


applesauceorelse

It only works when the people you're flanking are preoccupied / looking another way. Hence you need both a hammer and an anvil.


craemerica

Hey diddle diddle... right up the middle!


420Mike_Litoris69

To add onto this, squad stacking will lose you games as well. If you’re operating in a grid moving to a point with another squad you’re leaving tons of open space for the enemy to push through. For some reason Squads need to hold hands with others and it’s stupid asf


MrBadMeow

Everyone always attacks, people forget that the other team is also only ever going to attack. It really comes down to which team gets their massive horde to the other side first.


TumTiTum

In defence of the flank: Attacking the enemy from behind is Hella effective and the best chance of rolling a point. The problem is largely that the entire team attacks in a straight line from the nearest Garry to the cap point, and call that flanking if it is >5 degrees out of line with the hq. It doesn't matter which direction the front line is, it's not a flank unless you're attacking from the side or behind that frontline. Sincerely, SL fed up with seeing a narrow stream of cannon fodder direct from Garry to point.


_Amberson_

I held off I a defense with 50 other guys and we were completely surrounded. It was fucking intense. They would have been successful. But our 3 layer barbed wire surrounding the whole capture point kept us safe lmao


Jusaaah

the way the meta is set only the squad leader should try to flank and hide an OP on the flank close to the strong point. The more men you have flanking, the more men you have outside both the CAP and DEF zones and the bigger disadvantage your team is (assuming the enemy team has able squads defending the flank direction from the DEF zone). Stupid flanking is how most points are lost on public games, I agree.


DwnTwnLestrBrwn

What’s the difference between straight to strong point and rush to strong point?