T O P
HowVeryReddit

You'd get more meaningful outcomes by granting all types to your creatures and denying all types to your opponents.


Stormtide_Leviathan

I agree. Layerswise, you can’t grant changeling, you have to just give “every creature type”. So by keeping changing that first ability, you’ll be losing the symmetry by keeping the second one as changeling, and it’s an extremely narrow effect anyway. I think taking away all creature types is much more interesting. Edit: and oh wait, taking away Changeling won’t work either anyway


0011110000110011

True. But that would make it shut down all tribal stuff opponents have in colorless, I feel like that would be a more white ability. Maybe that more justifies it being a 2/2 for 6. Either way, I like that version better.


leovold-19982011

Should be “creatures you control are all creature types” and “creatures your opponents control lose all creature types and cannot gain creature types”


kytheon

Much cleaner


0011110000110011

My idea for a colorless addition to BNG's [[archetype]] cycle, based on [[Maskwood Nexus]]. Plus something to help obscure tribal decks. AFAIK there aren't cards that interact with "changeling" as an ability, just "gain all creature types" or whatever, but I think this still works. I made it a 2/2 for 6 which might be a bit too bad. It was based on Brass Herald, but that serves as a lord, too. Maybe this could be increased to a 3/3 or 4/4. Let me know what you think.


ForgedFromStardust

I think there’s a layers issue with granting/removing changeling and that’s why everything says “gain all creature types.


0011110000110011

Ah I don't know the rules well enough to know how things work on layers, I'd need a judge for that. Just imagine this is worded in whatever way it actually works :)


Criminal_of_Thought

In general, it can't be assumed that a designer's intent can be worded to work within Magic's rules. Fortunately for you, your wording is easily fixed by just outright stating that the creatures have all creature types. >Creatures you control have all creature types. >Creatures your opponents control lose all creature types and can't gain creature types.


Toricvariety_

But this actually works differently than op's card. Original card affects only opponent's creatures with changeling, while yours affects all. Although I prefer your version more.


Criminal_of_Thought

>Original card affects only opponent's creatures with changeling No, read the card again. It specifies "creatures your opponents control", not "creatures your opponents control with changeling".


Andrew_42

The original card removes "changeling" which has no effect on opponent's creatures that don't have that word though. Like how [[Archetype of Imagination]] affects all opponent's creatures but only REALLY affects their fliers. Unless a non-changeling losing changeling still somehow does something? I know some keywords wind up with some counterintuitive rules effects.


Criminal_of_Thought

It is correct to say that removing changeling from the opponent's creatures that don't have changeling doesn't do anything. But you missed the part where the second ability also prevents those same creatures from gaining changeling. Both my rewording and OP's original wording make the second ability affect the same set of creatures. What the ability exactly does to those creatures differs between the two wordings (gaining creature types on my rewording versus gaining changeling in OP's wording), but which creatures it affects is identical (both say "creatures your opponents control"). That's what my comment you responded to is saying.


MTGCardFetcher

[Archetype of Imagination](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/3/037b396c-2146-4d86-9d13-757685c850c7.jpg?1592710522) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Archetype%20of%20Imagination) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c18/81/archetype-of-imagination?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/037b396c-2146-4d86-9d13-757685c850c7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Toricvariety_

To be fair, this is exactly why it is important to use totally correct wordings. Current ops wording doesn't do anything due to layers and so it is hard to understand what exactly he meant - remove creature types from only opponent's creatures with changeling or remove types from all opponent's creatures. Seems he meant to just remove types from all creatures (not only changelings) and prohibit them from gaining types.


Criminal_of_Thought

While you're correct in that OP's card doesn't properly add or remove creature types as intended, the exact set of creatures affected by each ability is unambiguous.


DM_me_cool_artworks

That's a completely different ability tho. But it would make the card a bit more playable at least.


StoneCypher

what would happen if both players had one of these


kitsovereign

The same thing as any other Archetype, presumably: everybody goes home sad and empty-handed. Normally if you have "gains flying" vs "losing flying" - for example, [[Flight]] vs [[Colossus Hammer]] - the most recent one will win. But [[Archetype of Imagination]] has a more thorough wording, and in this case, can't beats can. Your Archetype means your opponents creatures can never have flying, regardless of timestamps. And if there are two enemy Archetypes, nobody flies.


MTGCardFetcher

[Flight](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/5/15316953-dcb2-4428-b90a-c90d3d4c45f3.jpg?1562633465) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flight) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m12/53/flight?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/15316953-dcb2-4428-b90a-c90d3d4c45f3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Colossus Hammer](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/9/897a134e-7e61-4fe1-bbae-23ef1fe5c0cf.jpg?1631588878) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Colossus%20Hammer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/202/colossus-hammer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/897a134e-7e61-4fe1-bbae-23ef1fe5c0cf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Archetype of Imagination](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/3/037b396c-2146-4d86-9d13-757685c850c7.jpg?1592710522) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Archetype%20of%20Imagination) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c18/81/archetype-of-imagination?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/037b396c-2146-4d86-9d13-757685c850c7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


StoneCypher

I actually kind of dig that


Kyleometers

Just for your benefit, as a judge, thought I’d explain why. Magic’s complicated ass rules system uses the Layer system, as you’ve seen, to handle continuous effects. Layers are applied in order, top to bottom, like so: 1. Copiable Values. 2. Control changing effects. 3. Text changing effects. 4. Type changing effects. 5. Colour changing effects. 6. Ability granting/removing effects. 7. Power/Toughness changing effects. As you can see, “Type changing” is before “Ability changing”, so Changeling would already do it’s ability before being removed, and gaining it would be too late for it to do anything. It’s why we can have “Red creatures have first strike”, but not “Creatures with first strike are red”.


MTGCardFetcher

[archetype](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/e/8e6c4afb-6a94-4519-91c6-9824fed2892c.jpg?1593091364) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Archetype%20of%20Courage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bng/4/archetype-of-courage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8e6c4afb-6a94-4519-91c6-9824fed2892c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Maskwood Nexus](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/7/471d2aef-cfd4-4131-bbc7-62eeed9f3343.jpg?1631052188) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Maskwood%20Nexus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/240/maskwood-nexus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/471d2aef-cfd4-4131-bbc7-62eeed9f3343?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


gudamor

Maskwood nexus affects creature spells and creature cards you own, too. Was that not included for power level reasons, for text box length, something else?


0011110000110011

It's not meant to be Maskwood Nexus' ability exactly, just meant to be more similar to the keyword-granting-and-removing abilities of the Archetype cycle, and using Maskwood Nexus as inspiration for this kind of ability being in colorless.


MrMacGrath

Mistform Ultimus is unaffected because it doesn't have changeling, nice


mrneutellaballs

Change it from changeling to gain all/lose all creature types and I think you've got something here. Cool idea.